Theres a lot of talk about what people are sideloading, how to do it etc. and ive done so as well as you might expect when you’re playing around with a new device and apps i think (for now) are crucial (mainly signal)
but, i’ve become very aware recently of how addictive technology is. no doubt many here are aware of how almost all apps are designed intentionally to keep you engaged, keep you hit with random dopamine hits to trick your brain into ‘needing’ all these apps, and having the deep feeling of needing to keep connected to them.
i wonder what people think about what extent we should actually be disconnecting from them?
and how many people are pausing and taking some serious consideration before sideloading an app they think they need, and maybe deciding to go without and see how it goes? and how many are thinking about alternatives? which while maybe slightly less convenient, are far healthier for our well-being. (pen paper, physcial maps, cd player or DAP… literally have people call you if its actually serious and time sensitive etc. )
here’s another thought, how many have considered that what we think we need is actually just long term damage from long term smart phone / app use which has created an addictive tenancy in our brain makeup when it comes to phones and apps? consider many of us have probably been using smart phones for years in which almost every app is specifically engineered to create an addictive gambling like environment for our primitive brains.
all these apps as well as the hardware are designed for instant gratification, they reinforce dopamine seeking behavior, even their mere presence on your phone can cause anxiety like responses related to fomo and even phantom vibration syndrome (yes its real).
so, wondering what peoples thoughts are on this? and wondering if those who havent thought about it much with what we might consider benign apps, might consider thinking more about them? (even im not sure about keeping signal on my phone long term)
I’m trying to side load absolutely as little as possible, for some of the reasons you mentioned. I need WhatsApp to avoid international charges, because I currently live in another country vs most of my friends and family. So that one is essential for me.
I like to listen to educational podcasts when I walk to work, so I’ve also loaded an app for that. And I do prefer to have navigation in the city since I move around frequently and don’t want to unnecessarily inconvenience myself re: public transit info.
But that’s it for me
Where I’ve drawn the line - I’m not putting a browser on my phone, because that’s a gateway to so many behaviors I’d like to reduce (like googling things in the middle of a conversation for unnecessary info). Social media or other infinite scrolling apps are out of the question.
With this setup, there are certainly inconveniences, but many benefits and my screen time is down substantially. Enjoying that aspect so far.
Edit: Sorry and the keyboard. That one is definitely staying . But I will remove it (and the sideloaded maps) if the native tools are updated.
As far as I am aware nobody is sideloading YouTube, TikTok or Twitter or any adictive apps.
We’re sideloading communication apps like Signal and Whatsapp because SMS is useless in this part of the world.
We’re sideloading Maps in case we need directions, until Mudita updates their map to have directions.
We’re sideloading other apps to replace the default ones, because they’re currently missing some features. Like a better music app that actually has album/artist playlists.
The only thing that I can consider remotely out of the default app scope is Antenna Pod for podcasts because Mudita doesn’t have one yet.
I don’t know where you saw people sideloading addictive apps, I’ve been in this forum only a few weeks.
interestingly while i see the importance of whatsapp etc. the fact that you think they have no addictive qualities to them is a testament to how well their addictive designs are built into the app.
also id disagree on SMS. since its available, its not useless, people only think it is. (im not discounting the usefullness of things like whatsapp or signal though).
whatsapp though is designed to be a one stop shop for communication.
read receipts, typing indicators, status features for example are all designed to create anticipation, feed social feedback loops and encourage fomo.
similarly its notification system is designed to stay on, to feed fomo and instant gratification and dopamine triggers which get real kicks out of unpredictable reward systems like notifications. (try turning them off, and whatsapp will start nagging you to turn on message alerts)
they’re subtle because they’re designed to hit more primitive parts of the brain and go unnoticed while feeding various reward systems in our brain behind the scenes.
so while whatsapp is a great tool, we shouldn’t be fooled into thinking its harmless, and its that exact issue that i think we’ve become so well trained to simply not see.
GPS btw (just food for thought) over reliance on it could impact spacial cognition, brain structure, and gray matter volume.
also, another example, banking apps fall into this dopamine reward slot machine system and we dont really think about that either. while they are useful, they’re designed in ways which trigger the same addictive dopamine hits that other applications do like youtube etc. its way more prevalent than we tend to think about
No offense - but I think you might be missing the main point here. In many parts of the world, WhatsApp is how most people exchange texts (and group messages). This isn’t going to change just because we decided to buy a dumb minimal phone
Sending international SMS messages costs money as well, for me and for others to reply. There’s simply no advantage of using SMS. It’s also less secure, and a huge volume of SMS messages are analyzed and stored by various governments (US gov for example).
Finally, even if I wanted to start a group message on the native SMS application, it’s not even possible.
In some parts of the world, SMS is definitely virtually useless. I have visited some countries where a lot of people only have mobile data package for their phone so they can’t use SMS.
I didn’t bring a smartphone at the time so I literally had to borrow someone else’s phone just to be able to contact some people I had to contact.
ive never said otherwise. as i said, i have signal on my phone and i think it suffers from many of the same issues whatsapp does. the issue isnt not to use an app if you really need it. the issue is do you really need it in the first place, or is the need partially coming from a deeper issues of the addictive design of these apps. (the end result may be that yes you do actually need it, but maybe that need is better informed with a pause to think over it, and the consequences of using an app)
geximos suggested whatsapp doesn’t fall into that addictive like category at all, which isnt actually true, which is part of the point of the post in the first place, that way may not even be aware of some of the addictive natures of how some of these apps are purposefully designed, even when we do actually maybe need them for certain things.
In any case good point about reflecting before side loading anything on your Kompakt
For me, just calling out SMS is not useful for group messaging, or staying in touch with people outside of my current country due to intl messaging costs. But let’s not get sidetracked on SMS
ok its clear i think ive failed to get the issue across that i was trying to bring up, thats my fault.
but in an attempt to clear things up a little bit. When we’re talking about addiction, we are not talking about substance addiction which is not the same as behavioral addiction which is what applies in this case.
behavioral addiction can be far more subtle as i mentioned before, especially considering that some aspects may be seen as ‘normal’ in society.
take a really simple example of checking your phone or whatsapp for notifications or new messages. doing this 3 or 4 times in a day might be quite normal and regulated behavior, but the average is more like 50-70 times a day. if you’re checking your phone 60 times a day for messages thats around once every 20 minutes.
now look at that as an outsider looking in, apply it to anything else where someone is constantly checking up on the same thing every 20 minutes. this in its self could already start to fall into the category of a behavioral addiction. this could fall under a normative addiction as well btw, something thats so widespread that while it looks ‘normal’ the behavior is actually not normal at all.
its not about people being a lost cause, applications and these devices are designed in a way that makes people always available, always connected. they’re designed to re-enforce addictive feedback loops, giving small dopamine rushes when seeing a notification, and even in the anticipation that they might have a message is in its self a dopamine feedback loop that is stronger than something which is reliable and predictable.
so, as i said its not about saying you should not use these apps at all. its more im asking, are we stepping back to really look at how they affect us, that even in the case where we do assess our needs and decide that we do need, say, whatsapp. that we know that decision is a one of actual need and practicality and not one thats being influenced by hidden behavioral addiction, and that when we do use these apps, that we guard against this purposeful design to keep us always connected, always engaged and triggered at every notification?
i get that, especially in some countries. id love to know what you think of what i said above? hopefully i was able to clarify myself a bit better than before.
My thoughts are that computers used to be tools… and now we are the tools. So a phone should be a phone and only a phone. Personally, I will not be sideloading any apps except Signal- and that’s only because I am stubborn.
I think pretty much anyone would be better off checking their phone less often so I agree there. Personally checking my phone for SMS texts or checking my phone for WhatsApp texts is no different. Actually one of my favorite features of WhatsApp is the ability to selectively mute notifications from group texts that I don’t need instantly.
Regardless though there’s no choice for me. Kids daycare information comes through WhatsApp. My tennis coach only accepts RSVP through WhatsApp. Other group sports, or RSVPs to dinner with friends, etc. also WhatsApp. For me it’s a communication tool and not an optional one.
I think people that can be easily tied to from Whatsapp as you’re explaining will be so with SMS too. Let’s take off touch screens from equation, they would still get hooked up on Qwerty or T9 texting with their phone still on the pocket. So they’re no saving them even if they don’t do sideloading or give them a device that has no apps whatsoever.
Read receipts can be turned off, Stories can be turned off (at least on Signal). So what you’re getting is an All in one SMS/Call/Video Call platform to keep in touch with people.
There’s only so much that a phone like Kompakt can do to lower your need for dopamine hits, there’s literally no notifications on home screen other than for calls and sms. The rest is up to the user to work it out.
I’d understand the arguments completely from actual addicting apps like TikTok, Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, I even heard there are LinkedIn Lunatics.
But for Signal, Whatsapp, Baking apps?
Not everyone has a computer, it would be beneficial to some people to check once a week or month if they have received their salary. In fact I’m sometimes jealous of people that have jobs that don’t require a computer and still manage to live a life without tying themselves to their phone.
I got as far as downloading the apk for OLauncher then decided to pause, and no, I do not want to add to my minimalist setup… in fact cutting down the number of app icons (see separate thread) is sufficient, although I’ll definitely try both setups if Mudita add text only menu as an option
I agree WhatsApp is addicting the same way Telegram is addicting and the same way Discord is addicting. These apps are intended for you to join a million chatrooms and sit there waiting for new comments. You’ve also go the real-time social feedback (likes and dislikes), the profiles and the “stories”.
Thank you for bringing this up, it is something I’ve been thinking about lately. WhatsApp is probably the app I would side load. It is a tool and it is definitely addictive. I use it to communicate with my overseas family and I check it all the time, even though 99% of the time the messages are not urgent or time-sensitive, it just gives me as sense of connection. I have deleted the app off my iPhone and I have found that I have not missed out on anything by checking it as little as once a day on my computer. I may need WhatsApp more when I visit, as others have mentioned how this is used in some countries, the situation hasn’t come up yet for me to test how much I really need this app. Same goes with email, I checked it much less when deleted from the iPhone, although occasionally there is time-sensitive information. For example, I have driven to pick my kid up from a field trip because I didn’t have my phone with me and missed the message that they were delayed by a couple hours. I think I can accept these inconveniences and occasional mishaps in exchange for greatly eliminating these dopamine hits, which I really think is not good for my overall well-being. I also have toyed with phone calendar and notes because of convenience, but now I just do pen and paper, because I want to reduce my dependency on a smartphone altogether.
The weather app make apparent this issue of dopamine hits. There is no need to check it as often as we do-- my kids often want to check it, sometimes multiple times in a morning. They fight over choosing songs to stream in the car. These fights are eliminated when we listen to the radio. Honestly I think they just like to look at the screen and tap around,
So I do think disconnecting (as much as possible) has a lot of benefits. But I also understand that modern life makes it very difficult to do so without willing to make sacrifices and take on inconveniences (convenience is such a slippery slope,)… Interestingly, when I have experimented with eliminating conveniences I thought was necessary, I have found more often than not I didn’t need it and often there is liberation in realizing some thing I thought was needed was really not…
I am not planning on sideloading anything, I have been 4 years with a dumb phone and my life has been fine, never caused me any issues so why would I suddenly start sideloading? That being said if I ever decide to do it there are no addictive apps I could sideload, I am on no social media what so ever, i will never put a browser on the kompakt either cause the moment you do that its a smartphone and I have left that life behind, I know if I put a browser on it whenever I was bored I would start searching random crap up which is such a colossal waste of time
There’s something in it.
I moved from Samsung to Mudita, and cut off all social media incl. Youtube on my work laptop at the hosts file level through admin I normally don’t have access to.
On the first day of such setup, I spent like 2 hours circulating over news websites. :o
The problem is deeper and a certain device or app can only feed this and make it worse.
With WhatsApp, IMO it should be manageable by putting all the groups into archive so they don’t chime every second someone sends a message, mute unnecessary conversations, and get into the habit of checking it rarely.
With apps such as Youtube or Tik Tok, falling for doomscrolling is orders of magnitude easier - requires much more practice to control if there are circumstances favorizing procrastination (anxiety, stress) so might be better to cut them off instead of trying to cope with those strong mechanisms affecting our minds.
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. But I will remove it (and the sideloaded maps) if the native tools are updated.
